The Area 0

Check out the IRC conversation I had today. First the guy argues, and then he proves my point completely.


[10:24] <IPv6Freely> Oh god
[10:24] <IPv6Freely> Cisco (NSDQ: CSCO) released on Monday its plan to help India increase its number of networking engineers from about 60,000 today to 360,000 in five years. The plan entails, of course, training and certifying those engineers on Cisco technologies.
[10:25] <IPv6Freely> oh hooray! not…
[10:25] <jamesss> Why not ?
[10:25] <jamesss> Scared ?
[10:25] <IPv6Freely> Yes, because we want more network engineers from India….
[10:25] <jamesss> Dont tar them all with the same brush. I’ve worked with some seriously intelligent guys from India… and some less so. About the same as anyone else.
[10:25] <IPv6Freely> It’s such a pleasure to call TAC as it is, I can only imagine how wonderful it will be then!
[10:26] <IPv6Freely> Have you seen cisco-related forums? Who are the ones always talking about testking and crap as if its okay? Who are the ones begging for IOS images? It’s not usually westerners
[10:27] <stretch_> yessir tank you for calleeng ciscotechnicalassistance mynameishamir howcanihelpyoutoday?
[10:27] <IPv6Freely> I run a facebook cisco group of almost 2000 members. I have to constantly delete shit put up by people from that part of the world.
[10:28] <stretch_> IPv6Freely’s building in army
[10:28] <jamesss> IPv6Freely : where are you from, remind me again?
[10:28] <IPv6Freely> I think saying “about the same as everyone else” is -really- inaccurate.
[10:28] <loceur> yeah I think Indian’s are mostly good with network admining
[10:28] <IPv6Freely> Ontario, Canada, currently working in Kansas USA
[10:28] <loceur> nothing about being Indian that makes them bad
[10:28] <IPv6Freely> no no
[10:28] <jamesss> Oh yeah thats right you moved from Canada
[10:28] <jamesss> I remember now
[10:28] <stretch_> IPv6Freely: got a link for that group?
[10:29] <IPv6Freely> I have no problem with them being Indian, it just happens that people from that part of the world are the ones whos shit i always have to clean up in forums and my group.
[10:29] <jamesss> Anyway let me take America as an example, every day i go on the internet i’m faced with stupid ‘americans’
[10:29] <IPv6Freely> stretch_: http://pittstate.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2213429314
[10:30] <stretch_> thanks
[10:30] <jamesss> I know what your saying but the same can be said for any group really
[10:30] <IPv6Freely> i disagree
[10:30] <IPv6Freely> i think the problem with warez, and cheating is much more prevalent over there
[10:30] <pc600> IPv6Freely - The biggest problem is not that they don’t knwo the technical stuff, but sometimes they have a hard time grasping the logical view of how everything is put together. It’s not really a trainable topic either… it’s just something you get the “Feel” for, and it’s not technical in nature. Perhaps it’s an offset of learning everything thorugh training and hands on, I don’t know.
[10:30] <IPv6Freely> pc600: I think they just like cheating
[10:31] <IPv6Freely> take the easy way
[10:31] <IPv6Freely> Make my certifications decrease in value
[10:31] <jamesss> pc600 : My experience is that way, they can be extremely technical and understand everything there is but still fall down on some basic things, alot of it to do with language and so forth.
[10:31] <pc600> IPv6Freely - I can ask how to redistribute OSPF into BGP and seed metric, and get a quick answer. But if I ask “I have three pipes of these sizes”, how do you think my traffic will fair on each with these tuning apramters… I get a big duh…
[10:31] <jamesss> pc600 : since in Indian English is quite different
[10:31] <jamesss> IPv6Freely : Indians like cheating at what?
[10:32] <pc600> It’s something, even without technical calculations… you just get a feel for.
[10:32] <IPv6Freely> I have a hard time believing that language has anything to do with the desire to cheat
[10:32] <jamesss> IPv6Freely : warez is probably just as prevalent in the US?
[10:32] <jamesss> or any other western country
[10:32] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: but its not
[10:32] <IPv6Freely> look at cisco forums
[10:32] <pc600> The only place it’s not is in corporations.
[10:32] <IPv6Freely> all the people cheating are people from that part of the world
[10:32] <stretch_> oh, I’d say warez is very prevalent in the US
[10:32] <IPv6Freely> me too
[10:32] <pc600> Anyways, late for work
[10:32] <pc600> bye guys
[10:32] <jamesss> So what do you mean by cheating?
[10:33] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: testking, pass4sure, actualtests
[10:33] <sartan> OK so.
[10:33] <sartan> I know people from india.
[10:33] <IPv6Freely> people over there think those things are valid study tools
[10:33] <sartan> It’s a way of life..
[10:33] <sartan> bribe your professor.
[10:33] <sartan> bribe the cop.
[10:33] <pc600> Succeed or die mentaility
[10:33] <pc600> really…
[10:33] <sartan> It’s just a statement. *ducks*
[10:33] <pc600> It’s so competetive.
[10:33] <jamesss> ^
[10:34] <pc600> ^?
[10:34] <jamesss> IPv6Freely : If those guys are passing the cisco test what does that say?
[10:34] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: it says they used those tools to cheat
[10:34] <jamesss> Thats not cheating?
[10:34] <IPv6Freely> yes, its cheating.
[10:35] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: you’re doing an excellent job of proving my point right now, actually.
[10:35] <sartan> The idea behind the cheating is that they do not use it as a study tool.
[10:35] <sartan> They remember the questions and answers and nothing on the reasons
[10:35] <jamesss> Well isn’t that cisco’s fault?
[10:35] <IPv6Freely> no its not ciscos fault
[10:35] <IPv6Freely> even if it was, that doesnt make it okay
[10:35] <IPv6Freely> Again, proving my point.
[10:36] <jamesss> So it’s their fault for passing the test but only by intense cramming and memory alone?
[10:36] <IPv6Freely> Yes.
[10:36] <IPv6Freely> It’s their fault for cheating on the exams.
[10:36] <IPv6Freely> Do you think it’s okay to study from the answer sheet for an exam in college?
[10:36] <IPv6Freely> Its the same thing.
[10:37] <ShadeS|Work> it doesn’t matter how you pass the test
[10:37] <ShadeS|Work> as long as you can do what you’re asked to do
[10:37] <sartan> lookit em trying to weasel out
[10:37] <sartan> hehe
[10:37] <IPv6Freely> hehe yeah lol
[10:37] <sartan> this is a flame war i’m not going to participate in anymore
[10:37] <IPv6Freely> It’s funny because he was arguing with me, and then he started doing exactly what he was arguing against
[10:37] <jamesss> I think thats a problem for Cisco to deal with. If people are getting the answers somewhere then Cisco need to make sure that doesn’t happen or go to more hands on tests
[10:38] <stretch_> I think IPv6Freely is makingthe point that there’s no intent to retain information on their part, devaluing the certification
[10:38] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: I think people just need to have some honor and stop cheating.
[10:38] <jamesss> IPv6Freely : Yes we need more honor but i dont think thats going to happen any time soon
[10:38] <loceur> laugh
[10:38] <loceur> I think there should be physical finger cut offs for caught cheaters
[10:38] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: Indeed. Hence my despair at the original topic that led to this discussion.
[10:38] <loceur> that’ll lower cheating
[10:39] <loceur> ‘hey, you have a ccie, but you’re missing 2 fingers… what happened?’
[10:39] <loceur> ‘Got caught only twice…’
[10:39] <IPv6Freely> I looked at a testking after I took my ONT. The questions on it were IDENTICAL to the actual exam. It was scary.
[10:40] <IPv6Freely> And it was sickening to think that people were cheating.
[10:40] <loceur> yeah… I had that experience too
[10:40] <loceur> scary
[10:41] <jamesss> IPv6Freely : Why do you blame the users?
[10:41] <IPv6Freely> The thought that I just worked my ass off to pass, and some noob just cheated his way to the same certification.
[10:41] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: because they made a conscious decision to cheat.
[10:41] <IPv6Freely> You have the choice.
[10:41] <jamesss> What because they never followed “reccomended study guide!”
[10:41] <IPv6Freely> Right.
[10:41] <IPv6Freely> Because they used tools to cheat, instead of studying and learning.
[10:42] <loceur> I wouldn’t hate the testking users so much if we cut off fingers when we caught people
[10:42] <loceur> that gives them balls
[10:42] <IPv6Freely> loceur: I think its a good idea, I just wish there was a way to enforce it
[10:42] <jamesss> Why isn’t that something cisco can fix? Why dont they put more practical shit into their tests
[10:42] <IPv6Freely> Or catch people.
[10:42] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: why dont people just not cheat?
[10:42] <IPv6Freely> Do people really care that little about their own careers?
[10:42] <loceur> IPv6Freely; risk assessment in one’s head is risk*potential_loss
[10:43] <loceur> read your cissp
[10:43] <IPv6Freely> fuck cissp
[10:43] <loceur> so up the potential_loss
[10:43] <jamesss> I think thats human nature to try
[10:43] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: no, its not human nature. Thats the part you’re not getting.
[10:43] <IPv6Freely> You think its okay. It’s not.
[10:43] <loceur> it’s human nature to like your fingers
[10:43] <stretch_> especially chicks
[10:43] <jamesss> I dont think it’s ok to cheat, but the definition of cheating i have is different
[10:44] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: and that’s the problem.
[10:44] * Onyx-Work__ (n=chatzill@87.236.183.130) has joined #cisco
[10:44] <jamesss> When i did my RHCE exam, our redhat teacher actually gave us a bunch of “example questions” and strangely enough i came across quite a few of those in my test???
[10:44] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: and thats why people have such a low regard for people from your part of the world.
[10:44] <jamesss> Is that cheating?
[10:44] <jamesss> Your part ?
[10:44] <jamesss> Now wait a second
[10:44] <IPv6Freely> no, because you didnt make a conscious decision to cheat then.
[10:44] <jamesss> What is my part of the world?
[10:45] <IPv6Freely> jamesss: with how much you’re arguing, I’m assuming you’re overseas
[10:45] <jamesss> I’m from London, UK. I
[10:45] <jamesss> I’m overseas to alot of people considering it’s just an island
[10:45] <IPv6Freely> There you go.
[10:45] <stretch_> heh
[10:46] <IPv6Freely> And considering your mindset on cheating, you’re no better then them
[10:46] <ShadeS|Work> anyone? 8 )
[10:46] <jamesss> My mindset is not on cheating…..
[10:46] <IPv6Freely> clearly it is.
[10:46] <IPv6Freely> you think it’s okay
[10:46] <IPv6Freely> Do you think testking/pass4sure/actualtests is okay, yes or no?
[10:46] <jamesss> I dont know anything about them
[10:47] <IPv6Freely> You seemed to, earlier when you argued with me.
[10:47] <stretch_> you just *saw* them, right? you didn’t inhale? =P
[10:47] <IPv6Freely> Anyway, this is what /ignore was made for. Have a nice day, jamesss
[10:48] <jamesss> I’m not talking about those specifically though. I just think fundamentally if you are able to pass a test then you deserve the certification. If you found answers online then fuck me I’d want to blame Cisco in this case
[10:48] <IPv6Freely> I’d blame the person cheating.
[10:48] <jamesss> IPv6Freely : Not very nice. I’m only having a conversation here. I’ve even taken stuff like “and thats why people have such a low regard for people from your part of the world.”
[10:49] <jamesss> When in fact I have no links with India at all? I’m just speaking as an observer
[10:49] <IPv6Freely> Oh well, thats what happens when you openly admit to believing that cheating is okay.
[10:49] <IPv6Freely> You get ignored.
[10:49] <jamesss> But i dont …..
[10:49] <IPv6Freely> You did, already
[10:51] <jamesss> I think it’s a fine line. When i was doing my RHCE i looked online for study guides, how am i to know which one is cheating in your book and which isn’t in others? I went with my teachers reccomendations but what’s say i didnt click one one of those and suddenly become a “cheater”
[10:52] <IPv6Freely> sigh.
[10:52] <loceur> you should have 9 fingers now
[10:52] <IPv6Freely> I just spent 25 minutes of my life explaining why cheating is wrong. That should have been completely unnecessary. I’m done talking to you.
[10:52] <stretch_> rofl @ loceur
[10:52] <IPv6Freely> lol loceur